Clean Water Works
CLEVELAND, OHIO: From the Northeast Ohio Regional Sewer District, an in-depth and fun conversation led by Donna Friedman and Mike Uva on any and all topics related to clean water, wastewater treatment, stormwater management, and the people, projects, and programs serving Lake Erie and our local waterways and communities.
Clean Water Works
"Law & Odor" at the Sewer District
Hey, it's hard to pass up a good pun. Even if we didn't talk much about sewer smells in this episode, we were excited to learn how our legal team moves billion‑dollar water projects forward with strategy, ethics, and empathy. Chief Legal Officer Eric Luckage explains how well‑designed contracts, early risk spotting, and clear and honest conversations with residents help the Sewer District deliver clean water and protect our ratepayers.
I have something embarrassing to say and I need you to not be judgy out loud to me.
SPEAKER_02:Okay. All right, are you ready? Are we on are we is this part of it? We're live. Oh my gosh. No, we're not live.
SPEAKER_00:My experience of the judicial system up until probably a very embarrassing age is Judge Duty.
SPEAKER_01:Got it.
SPEAKER_00:But I think growing up when people were like, Oh yeah, you know, lawyers in the legal system. I don't even think they have lawyers on Judge Duty. That was my experience of like what the legal system is. I'm guessing you didn't grow up just like watching Judge Judy when you were supposed to be doing your homework.
SPEAKER_01:It was Judge uh who was People's Court guy. Oh, Wapner. Wapner, you know. Oh, look at that.
SPEAKER_00:Good recall.
SPEAKER_02:I think a lot of people have an impression of what it means to be a lawyer or how the system works based on TV shows. Drama. And they are typically not good representations. And so that's usually why I don't watch them. Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Not at all. Like law and order, nothing good to be learned from. That's on the criminal side. I mean, I the the the life of a criminal lawyer is is quite a bit different than mine. So I don't know how accurate that is. But yeah, just day-to-day lawyering is usually not as dramatic as it is on TV. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_00:I mean sometimes it's a little dramatic.
SPEAKER_02:Aaron Ross Powell Sure. There's all sorts of drama. And the goal is to try to bring down that that drama. And I always say that, you know, the goal is not to win the fight, it's to avoid the fight. I think that people look at lawyers on TV and they think that the best lawyer is the loudest and angriest and meanest person in the room. The litigator. And that is not usually the best winning strategy for a situation.
SPEAKER_01:This is Clean Waterworks, a podcast.
SPEAKER_00:About clean water, and I'm one of your hosts, Don Friedman.
SPEAKER_01:And I'm Mike Uva, and we have with us today Chief Legal Officer Eric Luckage. Welcome. Good morning. Thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_00:You said strategy, and I think that that is what I see you guys within the legal team doing. It's just strategy. It's like nonstop emails and strategy.
SPEAKER_02:A lot of writing?
SPEAKER_00:A lot of writing, reading.
SPEAKER_02:No arithmetic.
SPEAKER_00:No arithmetic. No. Thank goodness. Leave that to the engineers.
SPEAKER_02:Exactly. It's a lot of listening. If you look at the district's strategic plan, uh it very deliberately talks about using the legal department as a strategic partner to help accomplish the goals of the organization and the mission of the organization. Some people, maybe they watch TV shows and they have an idea that the lawyers are like the no people. And I like us to be the yes people. How can we help you accomplish your goals? How can we help the district accomplish its mission? So we have decision makers that decide they want to do something, and our job is to try to help them get there. And so then we go about the business of understanding what it is that they want to do and try to write the menu for them. I talk a lot about writing the menu. And here's option A and option B, and here's all the pluses and minuses, the risks and the rewards of doing it those ways. And then we let our clients choose which one of those items off the menu they want to pursue.
SPEAKER_00:When I first started at this building specifically, you were always saying, I don't make policy. You are not the one creating the direction necessarily. You're helping to guide and protect the direction that we take.
SPEAKER_02:Exactly. Our job is to try to write policies that reflect the wishes of the policymakers and help our folks carry out those policy directions that they want to take. Now, I always have the opinion, of course, and when I'm asked, I will give my opinion on whether that's a good policy or not. But for the most part, the legal department's trying to carry out that policy decision that someone else has made. In a large sense, we facilitate the transactions that are needed to carry out the primary functions of the district. So we at the district are all working for our ratepayers, right? That's one of our principles, and we try to be stewards of those dollars. We view each one of our coworkers as a client. We try to get our clients what they need and do so in a way that's compliant with the law. We don't want anybody getting in trouble. Aaron Ross Powell Right.
SPEAKER_00:That's your main job. Main job. Being compliant with the law. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, exactly. So we don't end up on in front of judges. So that includes writing hundreds of contracts every year with vendors.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. So like our contractors.
SPEAKER_02:So at the sewer district, we need toilet paper.
SPEAKER_00:Trevor Burrus That is so true.
SPEAKER_02:We need paper towels. We need chlorine. We need all sorts of things at the treatment plants, and we need contracts for construction.$1.3 billion in open construction and engineering contracts on the sewer side right now.$1.3 billion. So when you've got a$200 million tunnel project to do, there's a whole bunch of stuff that has to go into that. And then there's other contracts as well. We have projects that are in coordination with other communities. We have issues related to security that we have to deal with. We've got IT. Virtually every department at the district has contracts. And so there's a couple hundred of those every year that we have to do. That's right. At the end of the day, going back to our policy discussion, you know, somebody decided we were going to build a project. We're going to do this or we're going to do that. And if you're going to do something, you want to do it efficiently and as cost-effectively as possible. So the legal department's a little bit of the grease that helps that happen, right? We've got to make sure that that contract's done well and done efficiently, then it helps the project get done on time. We have a lot of employment and labor matters. So we have 800 employees. There's all sorts of issues that go along with that, from labor contracts to work visas. We have policies about how we're going to govern our workday here and how people should behave. So there's all sorts of good things like that. There's some environmental law work that has to go on into regulatory issues. And we build all these projects, and we need a whole bunch of property. We're acquiring property nonstop every year, whether it's from Project Clean Lake or any of our other sewer projects, or our watershed programs, stream restoration and other stormwater and flood control projects. We're acquiring a lot of property. That's a process. Sometimes we have to approach folks and say, hey, we we need your property or we need to use a part of your property for this project. And that's usually a shock to them. They weren't expecting that. And so we try to be really careful with how we approach them and understand that that's news to them. And there's a process to go through that makes sure that uh they're comfortable and that we give them uh the proper amount of compensation. Do we ever have to use something like eminent domain? We do sometimes. The most typical reason that we are filing an eminent domain lawsuit is because we have made multiple attempts to reach out to the property owner, and they have been unresponsive. Whether because the owner is in another state, another country, they don't want to deal with it, they ignore it. For whatever reason, they've been unresponsive. And so at that point, we have to file an appropriation action in court, and that usually gets their attention then. And some of these projects are really uh unconventional or strange projects. It's hard for folks to conceptualize. You know, you're gonna build a you know 20-foot tunnel underneath their property, uh, or there's gonna be a big shaft in their in you know back in the in the back part of their property. That's a a concept that they weren't uh expecting. And how do you process that? We have to build those projects under the consent decree. And if we don't build them and we don't build them on time, there are significant fines that could be levied against the district and therefore against our customers. Uh on the stormwater side, we have I think$1.4 billion worth of stormwater uh needs in our service area. So there's a lot of projects out there. And usually those projects are very helpful to the folks that we are asking to acquire property from. And so usually they're pretty uh receptive to the idea. But if they're not interested, uh sometimes we will alter the project to go around them. Sometimes that's not feasible, and sometimes we have to move on to another project. But with 1.4 billion of them out there, um, we can we can usually find another project. We require folks to have ethics training every year. We take it very seriously, and we take a very conservative approach to ethics here. And so because of that training and because of that message that we're we're we're banging on constantly, when issues arise and they're inevitably going to arise, uh you know, they know someone, they're related to someone who may be doing business with the district, or we get a gift from a vendor, uh, how do you send that back? What do you do with those situations? And there are like conflict of interest. Conflict of interest types of things, yeah. We get a lot of those ethics questions because people know enough and have heard it enough to say, hey, here's an issue. Before I do anything, let's talk to the legal department and make sure that we're doing it the right way. You know, one of the most important qualities of a lawyer is acknowledging what you don't know. And so as general counsel for the district, I have to know about this huge array, all of those things that we talked about. I have to know a little something about all that. Um and I don't know everything about all those issues. So I'm a big uh believer in finding the experts. Um it's one of the most important things for a lawyer to recognize.
SPEAKER_00:I agree. I feel like guessing at the CLO level is probably not a great strategy.
SPEAKER_02:When you try to practice in an area that you are not familiar with, that you are not competent in, you are risking your client. And um it's a great way to end up with a comma defendant after your name. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_00:That would be bad.
SPEAKER_02:That would be bad. I have to recognize when there is an issue that is beyond the competency of me and my team. And when that happens, we go out and we find someone that does know about that. And one of the things that we do is make sure that when we have some time, we're looking out there and trying to find out what lawyers are out there, what expertise do they have, who's really good at this, who's really good at that, who can help us with these sort of interesting issues that come up that maybe aren't our specialty. You know, I think our budget's about$400 million a year. That's our operating and maintenance budget and our capital budget on the sewer side. And then there's another$40 million or so dollars on the stormwater side. So that's a lot of money that we're responsible for, and we want to uh be sure that we are good stewards of the ratepayers' dollars. We take that very seriously at the district.
SPEAKER_00:This is what I was randomly thinking about on the drive over here is that legal cases, federal decisions have really shaped the sewer district. Like we would not be here without the Clean Water Act, right? The creation of the sewer district, right? Our consent decree. Yes, and our Supreme Court case for the stormwater program.
SPEAKER_02:Correct.
SPEAKER_00:All of these things are legal related and have shaped the history and the future of the sewer district.
SPEAKER_02:No doubt. You know, the district tries to be really creative. We got a lot of creative people working here. The district's a creative entity. I mean, the fact that it exists is a creative idea. Somewhere long ago, I think in the 60s, uh the General Assembly decided to allow these regional districts to be created. And they make so much sense to address our types of issues on a regional basis rather than act as if it's something that stops at some political boundary. Um that is um sort of the basis of how we got here. It was born out of a legal issue, right? A conflict. Uh, the Clean Water Act, all those things that you talked about shape things. There's uh it's never ending. The law changes continuously. You can't pretend that it's not going to change or that you don't have to pay attention to the changes because we have to stay up with those. And whether that's, you know, construction law or employment law, um, there's all sorts of changes that are always happening. So it shapes what we do every day.
SPEAKER_00:I do think that a lot of times like the things that come up before you are conflict, like there is tension there, right? Um Litigation. Litigation. All of those things that created the sewer district came from conflict, came from tension, you know, fighting the good fight to come up with a better outcome. And that is like, you know, that is how we have our regional stormwater management program is so that we can help protect our drinking water source and do all of that work. You know, it's it's lawyers like you in the public sector that really drive a lot of that change.
SPEAKER_02:Well, correct. Um litigation is unpleasant. Um it it it it's it's horrible and it's very expensive. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it sounds terrible.
SPEAKER_02:You know, our job is to spot where potential litigation is hiding. And maybe it's hiding in plain sight. So it's not always hard, you know, that we don't have to be that genius to identify it. And if we have situations where we know that litigation is going to be inevitable for some reason, we want to take uh steps that ensure that we are best positioned to prevail on that litigation. And so we understand, of course, that not everyone uh in the public is going to agree with everything that we do, but we have to hear them and try to be responsive to them and try to answer their questions and help them understand what we're doing and why. So that maybe they won't sue us.
SPEAKER_00:And to stay true to the mission, right? That's the main goal.
SPEAKER_02:Aaron Powell That's right. And that's the you know, that's the transaction part of it. So there's litigation work and then there's transactional work, and the transactional work is trying to get the mission done. And the district is very deliberate in the things that it does. We have a lot of meetings. Uh we talk about things a lot.
SPEAKER_00:Aaron Powell We talk so much.
SPEAKER_02:We we sure do, and it takes a lot of time, but it is absolutely the way that we ensure that we don't miss step. We have a lot of checks and balances here for us to make sure that we are uh looking at every issue from multiple different angles so that we can consider how not only different people at the district think about an issue, but how does the public perceive this issue? And is there something that we're missing that can help them to understand what we're doing?
SPEAKER_01:What led you to become a lawyer?
SPEAKER_02:Well, I didn't set out to be a lawyer. You know, I was uh an undergrad at at Ohio State, um, and I started working in the Ohio Senate part-time, and that was a great experience. Um I learned how legislation happens, and I really learned about communication and storytelling as a way to help people understand issues. You know, when when bills are being debated and and folks are speaking in in uh the the General Assembly, they usually try to bring in a story about someone's real life experience to help understand why we're changing this law. So I learned a lot about that. The biggest lesson I learned when I was working in the Senate was how not to practice law. So we would get a lot of calls from constituents uh into the senator's office uh with some problem, and it was usually related to some governmental service that they were trying to provide. But frequently there was a component of their situation uh that involved a lawyer not doing their job very well. And I had to talk more than one person out of killing themselves. And, you know, when you're 20 years old, they don't they don't really train you on how to do that.
SPEAKER_01:Because they did something wrong?
SPEAKER_02:No. Their issues were that they were entitled to certain benefits and or they were in a certain situation. And the process was not going in a timely manner. And they had no income and they were losing everything, and they were desperate because they couldn't get any movement on these issues. And so they would call uh the senator's office, and our job was to work with whatever agencies were involved in that. Um and a lot of times back then it was workers' comp or unemployment or some sort of benefit like that that they would that they were relying upon. There was enough times where you could see the lawyer just not doing their job uh the way that they should. And it made an impression on me then because it's our clients' lives. It is ri very real for them. And I made a real mental note of that. I didn't know what I wanted to do to be, and I didn't think I had any skills. Law school seemed like a logical way for me to have a career of some sort because I didn't really know what I wanted to be. Then I started working as the public affairs director at the U.S. Department of Agriculture's Rural Development Office. One of the big programs at USDA Rural Development is a water and sewer loan and grant program for communities to help build water and sewer projects. So I got to know a little something about water and sewer. I graduated from law school, passed the bar, and one of my coworkers came and said, Hey, you know, I have a friend who's got this law practice that's water and sewer issues. And so I went and talked with them and decided, okay, I'll go do that. And I decided to leave the security of the federal government and go be a lawyer, something that I had never planned to do. So I was kind of scared and didn't know what I was getting myself into. So I did that for around 16 years, going all over the state, little towns, big cities. That gave me sort of a unique background in the in the water and sewer world, and also particularly in these sorts of regional districts. So that was certainly made me a little bit of a different type of lawyer than most of them out there. One of the things that I really learned from that time in the private sector was how different clients need different things from their lawyers. And you have to be a little bit of a chameleon. And you know, you of course have to stay true to yourself. But you know, I had clients who, if you didn't show up in a suit and tie, that was bad. And I had clients that if you showed up in a tie, they yelled at you. They're like, yeah, they didn't trust you. And you have to adjust your style. And it all goes back to social awareness. Social awareness, but it's also at the end of the day, like it's sort of a theme is what does the client want? What does the client need? Some of those clients wanted me to make all their decisions for them. Some of them didn't want any. You have to understand what they're looking for and you have to adjust your style. So I had all this background uh perspective with water and sewer. I had it from the federal level, uh at the state, local, private. All of that different perspectives made me sort of a unique candidate for this job. And I don't uh I think that those perspectives maybe are the best thing about me being in this job, because I'm able to look at these issues maybe from different angles. One of the other things that we did uh was create uh an organization that we called CORD, the Coalition of Ohio Regional Districts, and this is a nonprofit that is an association of all the regional districts, the 6119 districts, as we call our regional districts. Um, this was an association of them because they didn't really have a group. You know, there's the Ohio Municipal League for the cities and the villages, there's the township association. There was no regional district association. So we created that. And my predecessor, Marlene, was on the board, and so I got to know her a little bit. And then one day she called me and said she was retiring, and she thought maybe I'd be a good fit for the district.
SPEAKER_00:Come on up to Cleveland.
SPEAKER_02:Come on up to Cleveland, and they hired me.
SPEAKER_00:Been here ever since.
SPEAKER_02:Been here ever since, about ten years ago. All of us as public employees owe a duty to the public to be efficient, to save money where possible, and do it in an ethical manner and within the boundaries of the law. So that's uh really our mission. And it's really fun. I I always uh tell folks that if you can help one person in life, it's it's a great feeling. The neat thing about working at the district is I can wake up every day and know, well, we're gonna go help a million people, and we're gonna help Lake Erie, and we're gonna help the Cuyahoga River and all the other uh watersheds in the area. And that feeling is so gratifying that your work is part of this bigger mission uh to help all of these people and and the environment in such a broad scale. Um it's just hard to do that one client at a time. So this is a real special place to be because it's such an impactful thing for the community. It really feels good.
SPEAKER_00:Eric Luckage, public servant and uh chief legal officer here at the Northeast of Harbor.
SPEAKER_01:And Judge Wattner fan. Eric, thanks for joining us. Thank you for having me.
