Clean Water Works
CLEVELAND, OHIO: From the Northeast Ohio Regional Sewer District, an in-depth and fun conversation led by Donna Friedman and Mike Uva on any and all topics related to clean water, wastewater treatment, stormwater management, and the people, projects, and programs serving Lake Erie and our local waterways and communities.
Clean Water Works
Designing for Downpours: Stormwater Construction
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Rainfall can turn some roads into rivers. Construction Supervisor Joel Hill explains how his team keeps neighborhoods dry using basins, culverts, and stream restoration projects to manage downpours. Joel brings a rare perspective with his decade-plus working on massive tunnel projects and his pivot to the stormwater side of the Sewer District's work.
We discuss hydrologic forecasts that shape project designs and stream morphology, and spotlight some local projects in Maple Heights and Parma that have brought relief to once-flooded roadways.
If you care about flood mitigation, resilient infrastructure, and how precise design decisions ripple into safer streets, this conversation offers practical insights and hard-won lessons from the field.
Welcome And Role Overview
SPEAKER_02Think we uh Anyway, this is Clean Waterworks. It's the podcast about all things clean water. We're gonna check back in with our watersheds department. Donna's in the watersheds department, so she checks in with watersheds every day. But we're gonna visit with Joel Hill. Welcome to Clean Waterworks. Thank you.
Types Of Stormwater Projects
SPEAKER_00Joel is a construction supervisor in our regional stormwater management program within watershed programs. Um we have construction supervisors on both sides of the house. We have our our wastewater side of the house and we have our stormwater side of the house, and we do projects in both. We have design and construction in both. So Joel is on the stormwater side of things. For folks unfamiliar with the types of projects that you work on, can you give us a couple of examples?
Flooding Problems And Solutions
SPEAKER_01Yeah, um, so I've been in the stormwater side for about three years now. Pretty good array of projects I've been on. I started on some basin projects, uh just stormwater retention basins, the giant pit in the ground, essentially, that just holds the water until we can slowly uh feed it out. Right now I'm working on what essentially is a road project. Um, we do have two culverts on that area, so that's kind of how we got tied in there. And then, you know, stream restoration jobs, trying to create some floodplain storage, tie back into the floodplains. Um, those are kind of the projects I've been on thus far.
SPEAKER_02What are some of the problems that these projects are addressing?
SPEAKER_01A lot of flooding issues. Um, we've done a lot of work in Parma, Brexville. Um, that job I'm working on right now down on Riverview Road in Brexville. You know, they have to close the entire road with a small amount of rainfall, you know, for a few days at a time as uh the water flows out to the park. So um that's a huge issue we see from job to job. So we're just working on conveyance, a little, you know, storage. I'm just trying to move the water from A to B to uh make these roads passable.
SPEAKER_00So all of those projects that you mentioned, whether we're holding back flow from going into a residential neighborhood too quickly by using one of those stormwater basins, or whether we're raising a road and improving convenience, all of those fit within the purview of our regional stormwater management program.
Wastewater vs Stormwater Funding
SPEAKER_02How does the sewer district determine whether or not it needs to do an engineering and construction project or it needs to do a watersheds project?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so engineering and construction is the department that's within our wastewater side of the house, essentially. So that would be our project clean lake projects, like our large tunnels, our combined sewer overflow control projects. And then the watershed side would be our stormwater projects. So that would be the basin construction, stormwater, stream restoration projects, and flood mitigation projects for the most part. And that group is within the watersheds programs department and it's it's called design and construction. So we have sort of two separate groups that both do engineering and construction within the sewer district. For the engineering and construction projects that are for Project Clean Lake, that is funded specifically through your sewer bill, which is based on your water consumption. Whereas for the watershed design and construction projects on the stormwater side of the house, that is funded through the stormwater fee that's on your bill. So they are funded separately, and we do keep the two sides of the house separate as much as we can.
SPEAKER_02As a supervisor, uh, talk about the team that you're supervising.
SPEAKER_01So for like a day-to-day, usually I'll I'll start off in the office. You know, the the crews usually get going pretty early in the morning. So I'll start with in my head knowing where the project is going, uh, the type of work they'll be performing that day. So I'll start, you know, reviewing some middles that if you know the contractor is um putting forth saying, you know, these are the supplies and materials we're going to be using. So I'll be reviewing those. Um then from there I'll go out to the site, you know, meet with my inspection team, then walk the site, try to meet up with the foreman, and that from there we, you know, kind of get everything out on the table, you know, problems we're seeing, uh, possible issues, uh, any kind of delays, anything that they've come across. We kind of just try to discuss it all and get it all out right there. That way we can try to keep moving through the project in a timely manner. You know, sometimes we have multiple jobs, we have two to three jobs going at the same time, so it can get uh pretty tight and busy.
SPEAKER_00Sounds like a pretty social role as well as technical. Like you're communicating with people pretty much the whole time.
Communication And Conflict Management
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. It's nonstop communication. So, you know, coming into this role, maybe that wasn't my strongest suit. I'm naturally quiet, um, don't talk a lot. Um, so this kind of forced me out of my shell to um just communicate nonstop with so many different groups, whether it's design, uh, the contractors, my inspection team. Um, you constantly have to be in communication with residents, just you know, where you're at, where you're going, solving issues that have arisen.
SPEAKER_00Aaron Powell It sounds like that could be really important if there is a plan change that has to happen. So our designers, you know, give you the 100% plans, they go into the bid set, that's what the contractor bids on. And then if there is a change that happens in the field, are you responsible for having that transition occur?
SPEAKER_01And we always have a team to rely on. I have a manager above me and multiple managers above me that can help me make those decisions. We have a design consultant that we work with that can help me with that, but a lot of it does fall on me. So uh you have to be, you know, quick on your feet to assess the situation. What's the problem? What are our options? Where can we go with this?
SPEAKER_00Is that hard to coordinate with the contractor?
SPEAKER_01They are invested in the project. They want to create a beautiful project that functions as we intend. And that's my goal too. You know, I want to see everyone happy. I want to see the residents love the project. I want to see the contractor make money and feel good about it and come back and bid our work again. That creates a great relationship. That, you know, that's a great contractor. It just goes the job goes so much smoother, less stressful if, you know, you are two rational people that can come together, talk out the problems and what you're seeing, and come to a resolution that works great for everyone. We have it laid out, we have a big design team that we've spent a lot of time and money going through this and figuring out exactly how we want this truck project to go. So we're gonna follow that.
SPEAKER_00Aaron Powell What's your uh what's your conflict management? Uh how do you how do you go about it?
Case Study: Stafford Basin
SPEAKER_01Probably one of my best traits is I am at least I like to think, I'm very calm and relaxed. I'm flexible, I'm adaptable. Um I'm good at managing multitude of personalities. So I think that's key in the construction industry. I'm very understanding, I understand people's different backgrounds and you know where they're coming from, and I respect their opinions. So I think I can mold myself to all the different personalities out there and adapt and you know, make the project go.
SPEAKER_02You were mentioning a basin project, one of the projects you've been working on.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so that was the first project I was ever assigned to when I came over to the stormwater side. Um Stafford Basin.
SPEAKER_00Oh, Stafford, okay. Uh Maple Heights?
SPEAKER_01Maple Heights, yeah. Maple Heights. So it was there was the, I guess you'd consider it the inlet pipe. It was like a 80-some-inch inlet pipe that you know would fill the basin. So those basins just hold rainfall until collects um all the storm water from the nearby lane areas. I think that one was situated near the high school, near uh one of Maple Heights parks. So I just collected stormwater from the area. It would flow into the basin there and then slowly trickle out to uh one of the streams through, I want to say it was like a 15-inch diameter pipe uh that would slowly drain the basin there.
SPEAKER_00Joel worked on another project too that was in Parma in North Royalton. It was a stream restoration as well as a culvert upsizing or a crossing upsizing with a little bit of daylighting.
SPEAKER_01Correct.
SPEAKER_00Just a smidge.
Stream Restoration And Retaining Walls
SPEAKER_01Um we had a culvert crossing spreg road, I believe it was. Uh pretty small culvert and then daylighting, so some stream restoration. That's kind of a notorious area for flooding. That low point on Spreg Road floods out quite a bit. So it was a huge project for the residents in that low-lying area. That contractor, great contractor, but there was also a lot of stream restoration and creation in that job. So that was a struggle. Um, huge challenge for guys that have never done it before. You know, all the different, you know, rock mixes and pools and glides and all those different things that go into a stream. You know, I I don't blame them. When I started here, I didn't fully understand what that meant either. And so it was certainly a challenge. And then again, like the Stafford Basin job, we had two giant retaining walls made of natural sandstone, you know, blocks that were six feet by three foot by two foot, uh, that had to be flat on two sides that had to be stacked, you know, upwards of eight feet tall. That's very challenging, not easy to do, very frustrating for the operators and guys trying to build it. So there was a lot of bumps along the way on that project, but ultimately it came out beautiful and it functions as intended. So very happy with that product.
SPEAKER_02Are the contractors getting better at these types of projects since the stormwater program has been in place?
SPEAKER_01I think so. We we've we're starting to see a lot of the same groups come back. Um, you know, that they've worked enough with the district, had a few jobs under their belt now. They seem to like working with us or realizing these are good projects to get involved in. And we're starting to attract um, you know, some contractors that just work with, you know, the gray infrastructure. Um, but we're starting to see a little trickle over them coming over to the stormwater side and you know, try their hand at our projects, which, you know, we encourage, you know, there's a lot to learn coming over to this side, um, to everything that goes into you know stream morphology. I think it's proven to be a great division and great projects for some contractors out there.
SPEAKER_00Can you talk about the complexity of installing a stream restoration correctly?
SPEAKER_01There's a lot that goes into it. I I'm not gonna lie, I came over from the tunneling side. I worked for, I want to say 11, 12 years uh on Project Clean Lake as a consultant. And um, you know, this division was starting to grow, so I got a phone call, you know, asking if I was interested. And I certainly was. Very little experience in stream restoration, didn't know much of what went into it. You know, I was pretty naive coming into it, thinking, you know, okay, you dig a little ditch, dig a ditch with the bathroom, throw some rock in it, call it a day.
SPEAKER_00Um couple of goldfish.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, maybe got some fish and frogs. Great. Easy. How hard can it be? You know, I've been working on TBMs, you know, tunnel boring machines. Yeah, tunnel boring machines, 300 feet deep, three miles long. How hard can this be? You know, this is gonna be a cakewalk. And then um, you know, we're talking pools, glides, runs. I'm Googling like crazy, you know. Sorry, I'm trying to figure this out as I go. So I'm trying to educate myself and find different courses that can run me through it. So it's not easy. You see some super experienced contractors come into this, try to go after these jobs like I just spoke of, that are, you know, maybe road builders, and they struggle big time. There's a lot that goes into it. I remember maybe my second week here. I was sitting in a design review meeting and they were throwing around different terms and like thaw leg came up. Thaw leg? Thaw leg. I had no idea what that was. I was just like you. I was like, did they misspeak? I Googled it, I went, okay, the deepest part of the channel. Okay. That makes sense.
SPEAKER_00The main flow. Yeah. Right. And it moves with the stream, right? Correct. It's not always in the middle. Not always the center, it can move. And that's why that term is important. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So there's many terms like that, and there's so many different things that go into a healthy stream system.
Designing For Extreme Storms
SPEAKER_00And some of these measurements, when you are grading out a new stream channel, it's a matter of six inches to a foot of grading difference between some of these morphological locations, whether it's a pool or a riffle. It's just very precise.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, there's a lot that goes into it from all the different stone sizing, where you locate your grade controls and your riffles and your glides, all that plays into how the stream flows, you know, different organisms, fish, everything that can exist there. Um, there's so much that goes into it.
SPEAKER_00And if you don't do it right, bad things happen.
SPEAKER_01Correct. One of the projects we did, um, it was that project over in North Royalton, Parma area. We were just wrapping up that project, just you know, finished the last section of the stream, and we got a hundred-year storm event or or you know, greater. It was a huge storm that rolled through there, and it just blew out everything we had just finished. Oh, wow. You know, we're seeing such an uptick in these peak storm events. We did account for that to an extent, but we could have done a little more. So we went back, we upsized some of the rock, we changed how we anchored it in, we armored some of the banks a little greater and just tried to overcompensate.
SPEAKER_02And you're doing the stream restoration because of erosion problems?
Modeling To Construction Handoff
Career Shift From Tunnels
Control Of Water Plans
SPEAKER_01In that case, we had a lot of flooding issues on that part of Spreg. There was two houses slammed in there on the corner at the low point, and everything was culverted. So we stuck with obviously the culvert running across Spreg Road, and then we daylighted everything. I forget the yardage of material, but we benched down the area, I want to say upwards of six feet or more. So that means you benched down the area? You know, excavated out the area, lowered the the geography, created a lot of floodplain storage. So once you do get that big rush of rainfall, you know, it can spread out and disperse there. And as the storm subsides, it can work its way out, similar to like Stafford Basin, to where you know you can fill the basin up and then it'll slowly flow out the smaller diameter pipe. Same kind of thought process there with the floodplain. Certainly here in northeast Ohio, we're seeing an increase in rainfall. We're seeing, you know, these big peak events. So you're not seeing rainfall over a long extended period of time. You're seeing these, you know, super big, quick um storms hit. So you have to accommodate for that, you know, you have to adjust accordingly. So that's certainly something that our team here keeps continues to monitor, forecasting into the future of, you know, how are we trending? What are these storms doing? And how do we need to adjust on our stormwater side to account for these changes? You know, how much do we need to upsize these culverts? How much usizing do we need to do for this rock for these intense storms that come through and try to push this stuff around? What do we have to do to get it to stay in place? So there's a lot of consideration that goes into it there.
SPEAKER_00And a lot of that starts all the way back into pre-design. Pre-design and even before that, we have a group that works on our models and tries to make sure that they're as up-to-date as they possibly can, capturing all the stormwater flow from different local pipes into our regional system. They take those models, they put it through the design, make sure that it works within the design. And then that's when, you know, Joel and the other folks on the construction team can really look at those plans, make comments and edits based on their field experience and their experience with construction. And then those projects get put in the ground. So there's a long run up to the project actually being put in the ground. And a lot of that is making sure that the project is designed correctly for that space.
SPEAKER_02What made you want to switch from the tunnel side of things to doing this kind of work?
Unforeseen Conditions In The Field
SPEAKER_01Well, yeah, I was looking at that point in time. I was getting a little worn down uh on the tunnel side. Oh, yeah. The the large machines, large equipment is cool. That's, you know, I love seeing that stuff, but it gets very repetitive when you're down in the tunnel. You're seeing the same gray segment get thrown up time and time again. I had already completed probably 10 miles or more of tunnel. It gets just very repetitive, seeing enough shafts, uh, different control vaults and tie-in structures. I wanted to get something a little more nature-based, uh, get a little more involved in design, just kind of change, you know, my day-to-day. So an opportunity arose here with the district, and I jumped on it.
SPEAKER_00Can you talk about control of water?
SPEAKER_01Control of water.
SPEAKER_00There are a couple things that we talk about all the time on the designing and construction side, and these are the two things control of water and unforeseen conditions. And both of them kind of have like that dun dun dun, like that follows them when they are like talked about in the room. So I'd love for you to hear your construction perspective on these two things.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, control of water. So these projects, like I was saying, with these floods, these you know, flashy storms, there's a lot that goes into the control of water plan. Um, that's one of probably our biggest submittals that the contractor has to put forward. There's a lot of, you know, studying and modeling that goes into it through the design process. The contractor has to look at all the modeling and the numbers that we've laid out in front of them and show us how they plan to handle, you know, not only baseline flow, but some level of storm events when it comes through for us to be able to, you know, work in these streams, remove and replace these culverts.
Residents, Payoffs, And Project Wins
SPEAKER_00Well, and just to paint folks a picture, if you're working in a stream, or even if you're replacing a culvert, you have to have like a pump around system, right? There's pumps and then there's piping, and they have to figure out what size those pumps need to be. Do they have to, do they need one, do they need two? How big is the piping gonna be? What kind of storm can it handle? What happens if it can't handle it? Where does it go then? So that's all of part of what they're submitting with that plan, right?
Background And Tunneling Years
SPEAKER_01Correct. We show them what is the typical expected flow in that area. So they have to show us the different size pumps that they're gonna use in that area, but you know, it's only gonna work to a certain extent. You know, you're gonna get big enough storms that, you know, you can have as many pumps there as you want, and the storm's still gonna overwhelm what you're able to pump and move. The idea is to, yeah, put pumps and a plan in place to handle baseline flow as well as you know, some storm surges, but also have a plan in place for where this flow can be diverted to, to where it doesn't harm any residents, any structures, any of the work. Before this, I would never think twice when it rained, but now that kind of it's it sounds silly to say it keeps me up at night when you hear the rain, you know, tapping on your roof. Uh, you think, how's the project doing? You know, we have this massive cut open that's 20 feet deep and 60 feet wide that we were just about to put our new culvert in. We have utility poles supported. Uh, are those gonna get washed out with power lines on them and all sorts of other utilities? You know, what is it gonna look like in the morning? You know, you're always worried that you're not gonna get that culvert in place and get it closed up before, you know, storm comes through and blows everything out. Are we gonna have to retrace our steps? And, you know, we just lost two weeks of work. It's it's very nerve-wracking. And yeah, you have to have a uh plan in place that hopefully can handle the storm that's coming.
SPEAKER_00The other part here is the unforeseen conditions.
Closing And Takeaways
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. Look like a lot of different things. It can be anywhere from sinking your bucket in the ground and you hit you know a giant rock that wasn't supposed to be there. There's so much planning and research that goes into these projects. Everything, you know, is CCTV'd and uh we're working off a lot of historical data, you know, locating all these different utilities. So there's a lot of planning that goes into it, but until you, you know, start peeling back the layers, you don't know how accurate those documents were. You hope they recorded everything accurately and those pipes are where they said they were, but that's not always the case. You can't spend infinite time and money going out and digging down and saying, okay, the pipe is where they say it, or if it's a foot off, you know, let's add that into our design. You know, a lot of these things are under roads or under bridges, so that's not always possible. So you have to just work off of you know the record drawings or the ads builds um that were handed to you from the cities or whoever has them. So it's always a bit of an unknown when you start, you know, sticking that shovel in the ground. You never know what you might find. One project we had, we were excavating down, removing a large amount of material to create a floodplain. And I believe we had two, three houses that um were removed in that area for the project. And uh it looks like there was like an underground bunker there. It was this huge chunk of concrete, uh, old basement foundation ended up taking us like three-quarters of a day to expose it and then a whole nother day to get it broken up and removed. The one back end of it was like upwards of six feet thick. So it was almost like a weird like doomsday bunker or something. Very strange. I don't know exactly what it was, but regardless, we had to get it out of the way. One of the projects I had, we had uh storm sewer coming down the center of the road, and then uh to the east, we had a bunch of houses. So we had sanitary and uh storm laterals all coming across the road. Through design, we identified these laterals and we said, okay, they're supposed to be at a certain elevation, and they should cross cleanly underneath your proposed stormwater pipe. Well, of course, you go to excavate out the area to lay your stormwater line, and the lateral's not where they said it was. It's running dead center through your proposed pipe. So then you have to change quickly. You have to dig back, expose the line, drop that lateral, get it above or below um your proposed line. Things don't always work out perfectly.
SPEAKER_02You gotta decide what to do pretty quick so you can hold up the project.
SPEAKER_01You have to be flexible and think quick on your feet. You have to weigh your options and find the best course forward. So we can do a lot in design, but um you know, a lot of times it's only as good as the records that were kept by the people that uh put these things there before you mentioned things that keep you up at night.
SPEAKER_02What's the hardest part of your job and what's the most fun?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. You know, the jobs that go well, um, to where everyone can get along, they're on the same page of you know, wanting to have a great functioning project that looks great, functions well. Those I really enjoy. I love being around heavy equipment. Uh I love being in nature. Those are the parts of the job I love. You know, and before getting into this, I would have never thought this. I do enjoy talking to residents. Um I would have never thought I would say that, but uh people person. Yeah, I just naturally quiet, but getting out and you know, some projects it beats you down a little because people don't always have the greatest things to say. They're not calling you to compliment you on your project or until it's done.
SPEAKER_00Once it's done, then they all call me. And they're all like, wow.
SPEAKER_01They're not gonna call you early on when you're creating a lot of dust and mud.
SPEAKER_00No one likes construction.
SPEAKER_01There's a porta potty 50 feet from their front door. You know, they don't love that part. We do try and sell it up front though. Like, this is gonna be awesome.
SPEAKER_00We're like, we swear, you guys. Um, but then the project is over and it looks beautiful and it works right. And Jill has worked so hard to make it be in the ground the way that it's supposed to be, that they then are like, oh yeah, okay. Yeah, we get it.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. So, yeah, certainly early stages of the project, they might be a little leery of how it's gonna go. Um, then once we roll in there with heavy equipment and they get the beeping and all the trucks slamming, and they're not too thrilled. So you can certainly get some some heated phone calls, probably more so on your end. Then it just trickles down to me. Yeah, not too bad. Not too bad. Okay, that's good. Certainly towards the end of the project, hopefully, you know, we've alleviated a lot of their worries and concerns. And I will say, some of the projects, you get a phone call and it says, you know, resident voicemail, and you just cringe a little, going, okay, what's what's the issue now? And it's a pleasant voicemail saying, Oh, you know, we're so happy with the project, it looks great. So we've had a few of those. I know that hemlock project I did out in Seven Hills. Got a few voicemails from one of the residents out there. It looks real nice just yeah, saying how much they appreciated the work out there, how nice it came out. So it's a bit of a a wave you ride there. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um, their neighborhood isn't flooding anymore.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. So no one likes the noise and the dirt and all that. No one likes to have that in their front or backyard. You know, it is bothersome, it is loud, it's throws you off your day, but ultimately there we're there to, you know, do something good.
SPEAKER_00Joel, what's your background? How did you uh end up as a CS here?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so I have a construction engineering degree.
SPEAKER_00Oh.
SPEAKER_01Um from University of Akron.
SPEAKER_00Cool. Go zips.
SPEAKER_01So yeah, it goes zips. So I started with an engineering and construction management firm out of Akron. I worked there for just a few months, and I got a call from my boss to come to his office, and he said, How would you like to go work on a TBM? And I said, What is that? I had no idea. That's another thing I had to Google. I had no idea what a TBM was. So tunnel boring machine. Okay, let me look into that. The the seller was it's up close to where you live. And I said, All right, I'll think I'll give it a try. They're looking for someone young that can learn this stuff and kind of run with this program because it's gonna be a long haul, you know, 25, 30 years for this program. So we think tunnels. Yeah, um, we think you fit the bill and go up and give it a try. So I started up on Project Clean Lake on Euclid Creek Tunnel, and then I stayed there up until 2022, I want to say. So I did five of the tunnels from Euclid Creek Tunnel, Dugway, Done Valley, Westerle, Shoreline. Did all those tunnels from start to finish. I was like, I need a little bit of a change of pace. Yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_00That's a lot of tunneling.
SPEAKER_01It wears on you late nights, you know, 12 plus hour days.
SPEAKER_00Because they run some of those operations, the the tunneling overnight.
SPEAKER_01Majority of them run three shifts, some are two shifts each 12 hours. I did plenty of 6 p.m. to 6 a.m. shifts in the middle of winter, just freezing cold. It can get miserable quick. So that was wearing on me. I was ready for a change of pace, something certainly different from all the gray walls. So an opportunity presented itself over here with the district and I seized it.
SPEAKER_00Nice.
SPEAKER_02That's great. It's been really interesting learning about these uh stormwater projects and the benefits they're bringing to our communities. So yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01Thanks for coming on. Yeah, thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_02Joel Hill is construction supervisor in our watershed programs department. I'm Mike Uva.
SPEAKER_00And I'm Donna Friedman. And this is Clean Water Works, a podcast about clean water.
